Mark Wiley Interview

I am a great believer in Karma and getting a chance to train with Mark Wiley has completed a karmic circle for me, which started when Mark was involved in publishing Robert Chu’s Book "Complete Wing Chun." If it was not for Mark, I would not have read this book and may not have been inspired to seek out Chu Sifu to find out more about his method of Wing Chun. Since then I have become a disciple of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and proudly uphold its teaching.

I have also spent some time training in the Filipino Martial Arts and in the last three years found the art of Kalis Ilustrisimo. When I discovered that Mark was an expert in this system and was coming over to the UK, it was a great chance to thank Mark and also to train with him. Mark is a very knowledgeable teacher of the Filipino Martial Arts and I hope sharing his insights with you will help develop your interest in the deeper aspects of the martial arts.

Alan: Mark, you are regarded as one of the leading authorities on the Filipino Martial Arts, what was it that attracted to these arts.

Mark: Thank you, Alan. Well, I was always interested in learning weapons as a child, but my Tae Kwon Do master would not teach them to me (or didn’t know them). Then one day I saw a photo of Angel Cabales in Dan Inosanto’s book "The Filipino Martial Arts." He is seated at a table with a cigarette hanging from his mouth and has that "Don’t mess with me" look on his face. In another photo he is sparring with a stick, and I just knew that the life and art of this small yet tough man must really be something. I was able to begin studying Modern Arnis followed a year later by Serrada Eskrima. I feel very fortunate and honored to have been accepted as private students of some of the world’s foremost Filipino masters, including Angel Cabales, Antonio Ilustrisimo, Remy Presas, Herminio Binas, Onofre Escorpizo, Benjamin Luna Lema, Tony Diego, among others.

Alan: After your many visits to train with countless masters, you must be able to see a lot of crossovers as well as differences in the principles and concepts of application of the Filipino arts. What are the main differences between the arts and what is true to most?

Mark: Almost every style uses the same base of techniques (although under different terms) such as inside block, outside block, roof block, figure eight, up and down strikes, fan strike, to name a few. And many use a similar teaching paradigm, such as learning 12 strikes, the defenses against each strike, then some form of flow drills and disarming. But from there, each master evolves his own drills, progression, way of applying the base techniques, and so on. The main differences are regional and preferential. For example, the Visayan systems still train with espada y daga to a good extent, while the Luzon systems seem to favor single and double sticks. Some styles, like Modern Arnis, focus on blocking then grabbing for lock and control follow-ups, while others, like Ilustrisimo, focus on sword, wherein the weapon grabbing and lock and control techniques are made invalid by virtue of thesharp blade. Some systems, like those in Cebu, tend to use many drills, while the styles in Laguna tend to be more application based. Each master teaches what specialty he has mastered, and so his students will tend to favor those areas as well by default.

Alan: Kalis Ilustrisimo is a sword art, and therefore the art has a different feel when used with a stick. Are there other Filipino arts that use this idea in the same way and if they do is the application along the same principle?

Mark: The movements of Kalis Ilustrisimo are precisely those of the sword. However, they can also be effectively applied with a stick, although the feeling of the motions are not "slapping" but "slicing" or "hacking". And this brings up a very interesting point. While many Filipino systems claim to be able to interchange stick, sword, staff, knife, etc with no change in technique, this is incorrect. For example, Modern Arnis and Serrada Eskrima are strictly stick-fighting arts. But under no circumstance are they sword arts. If you tried to wield a sword with the techniques of either of these two arts (for example), you might die. You see, the body mechanic of using a sword and stick are different; the methodology behind wielding them is different; the footwork used to employ the techniques of a stick are different than those of a sword. The whole paradigm of training is different. And while there are a systems that do train both stick and sword, although the gross movements look similar there are actually dozens of subtle changes in the movement and mechanics that differ the applications. Because of my experiences with various masters, I’ve come to see the truth behind the transference of stick and sword techniques and concepts.

It is this: You can level down but never level up. In other words, if you train a sword art as a sword art and then hold a stick and still, you can still use your techniques without error. However, if you train a stick art with its inherent impact blocking and grabbing and checking, and then utilize a sword, you cannot apply those same movements without great chance of serious injury. There are simply too many stick motions that do not apply to the sword. Each has its pros and cons, but they are not the same and should be viewed and respected as different entities of a complete art.

Alan: So, as I say to my students, it does not matter which way you do something as long as you know why!

Mark: Yes, exactly! And the most difficult thing for martial artists, despite what many believe, is to really know "why" they are doing something. After all, it is the "why" that informs the when, where, and how of everything.

Alan: Where is your path taking you in terms of your training and ideas of what works for you.

Mark: In terms of "what works," my ideas are that while many styles use similar techniques, some are able to effectively apply those while others are not. I believe this is due to the training methods used to develop those techniques.I have spent a great amount of time trying to figure this out. In fact, over the past dozen years I have been examining hundreds of systems around the world, interviewing their masters directly about teaching and training methods, and then training and/or sparring with themto see how they apply their art. I found it interesting to see a given master able to apply certain things in realistic situations, while missing others, while both were given equal emphasis in basic training. And it all boils down to which techniques are emphasized within the most realistic drills within their respective arts. A given system might have hundreds of techniques, but they only focus on a dozen in their drills. And this seems to be the fault.

Alan: So how can one go about getting realistic training? They can’t keep developing a thousand drills for every style.

Mark: The key isn’t more drills, but a more realistic nucleus drill that can be expanded as new techniques and concepts are taught to the student. Many styles, like Wing Chun and Tai Chi, already have such a drill in their arts. But these arts are limited, which is why we see so many Wing Chun practitioners studying Eskrima; and so many Eskrimadors studying Wing Chun or Silat, etc. The same can be said for every art, which is why regardless of limitations inherent within specific systems, there must be a nucleus drill and training methodology to optimize the techniques the style utilizes.

Alan: Yes, I understand what you are saying. I started Eskrima when I was finding Wing Chun limited. Since then I have learned Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and with its methodology I have gone beyond that problem and now look at martial arts in a completely different way. Is that why you developed your own teaching method? Can you tell us about it?

Mark: I have not developed my own "style" as I still practice and teach Eskrima, Wing Chun, Ngo Cho and Qigong. But what I have developed is a new teaching paradigm and training methodology, called IMDT (Integrated Modular Dynamic Training). IMDT is a two part Paradigm and Method to Mastery, regardless of style.

The first part deals with breaking down a system in terms of techniques, concepts, principles, drills, etc. and listing them horizontally. Everyone seems to have "width" in technique, but many lack depth. In other words, people can attend 60 seminars and walk away with width in techniques (e.g., many movements), but they will lack any sense of real depth to each individual technique (e.g., conceptual understanding,linking to other techniques, applying them in different ranges and against different styles and weapons, etc.). So, once we "see" the width (horizontal list) of techniques, we can then make a vertical list of ways it can and should be applied (with footwork, other techniques, disarms, grappling, etc). Then fill in the blanks and see where we are lacking. But this is only the understanding of what we have part of the process—the paradigm of what needs to be done to master each area within a system.

Next we engage the method that makes it all possible, and that method must be simple yet expandable so as to easily incorporate new material as the student progresses through the ranks. We are talking here of a single nucleus drill that expands as each new technique or concept is added to and functionally integrated with the previous ones. Some teachers can just expand the nucleus drill they have, while others need to create a drill from scratch. But it is only when the paradigm is understood and the method employed with full integration of the system, that mastery of everything will come.

Alan: Who in the martial arts has been an influence to the way you teach and your personal development and how?

Mark: As a student, I’m fascinated by training methods; as a teacher, I’m fascinated by teaching methods. Every master I meet, and every book I read I analyze their training and teaching methods. When I visit clubs all around the world I observe the level of the master’s movements and also his teaching methodology and the methods the students use to develop their skills. It is an obsession of mine. From personal hands-on experience, I would say Mike Young has had a great influence on me. Mike writes columns on martial arts home training for the U.S. magazines, and I met him when I was a teenager and learned a lot about using equipment to perfect certain skills. From Angel Cabales I learned how to structure a system in a simplistic way, from A to Z. From Antonio Ilustrisimo I learned how to impart the essence of a system conceptually through movement and applicationFrom Robert Chu I learned how to teach with stress on proper body structure and understanding of technique concept. From Alex Co I learned how to emit both short and long power through movements. From Hou FaXiang I learned the subtle methods of circulating qi through the body, and manifesting it for health and vitality. There are so many people who have influence me, but these would be the individuals who most merit mention here.

Alan: You have trained in Asia so many times, you must have had some interesting experiences visiting so many masters. Do any stand out in your mind?

Mark: Actually, I’ve had quite a few interesting experiences in the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and other countries. Perhaps readers may be interested in my initial encounters with three masters of Arnis, Kung-Fu and Silat.

The first concerns the late Arnis master Antonio Ilustrisimo. I had heard of the great skills of Ilustrisimo for many years, but thought how different could they be to the other masters of the arts? When I finally had a chance to meet him in Manila, he was so unassuming and nonchalant about everything, that if I had not known who he was I would surely have passed him on the street unnoticed. After brief introductions, he handed me a padded stick, indicating it was time to have a go.Well, he was already in his seventies and had cataracts, so I thought I had better take it easy on him. What a cocky assumption! I have never been so impressed with an eskrimador as I was with this man’s skill. He was able to maneuver around my attacks, with little blocking, and strike me almost at will. And, he was not even paying attention to me, but talking to someone across the room! I asked him how he was able to do this, and he replied that since he could not see much of anything but shadows, and my stick and arms created shadows on my body, he did not need to see my strikes or react to them. All he had to do was strike the light areas on my body, as these were the places where light shone, and were thus not covered or protected. This experience really opened my eyes to a new level of skill that I had not previously known and now seek to attain in my daily training.

The next encounter concerns Hsin-I Liu Ha Ba Fa Kung-Fu Master David Chan. I have always been interested in the internal aspects of Kung-Fu, and have studied Qigong for many years in many countries. However, until eight or so years ago, I had yet to meet a master whose internal skills were high enough to actually demonstrate them on me with effect. (It is easy to do so with one’s own students!). I was talking with Alex Co one day in Binondo, Manila’s Chinatown about this, and he said there was a master I must meet, as his fajing was superior to most. David was kind enough to come by Alex’s office where we were and talked for several hours on internal power, zhan zhuang, and fajing skills. But I really needed a physical demonstration, and one was set for that evening. Alex and I went to David’s home and there we were also met by Tony Diego and Tom Dy Tang. The first thing David did was to allow me to strike him anywhere on his body with full force. This is did with interest and (dare I say!) a bit of pleasure. Round kicks to the legs, upper cuts to the ribs and kidneys, all with no effect! And all the while David just chuckled and spoke about his training methods! Next, he asked me to try and move him from his stance. I knew I had him here, having been involved in many such demonstrations and knowing how to push to break one’s center of balance. Not only was I unable to budge David from his stance, but he was able to walk me back into the wall! Next, he stood on one leg and asked us all to try and push him back off balance. I was first in line, and behind me was Alex Co, Tony Diego and Tom Dy Tan. We four at once all tried to push him off his stance, but with no luck! He then was able to send our energy back at us and we all fell over off balance!Round four involved David using two fingers from each hand and with his fajing, sending me flying several feet in the air and more than ten feet back into the concrete wall which provided a "cushion" to my fall! I was so very impressed with David Chan’s skill and ability to demonstrate fajing on a stranger who was well versed in the arts, that I went on to study with him the methods of zhan zhuang standing qigong practices and iron body training. I was then fully convinced of the existence and use of such esoteric and hard-to-find skills, that I continue practicing them to this day.

The third encounter concerns Silat Master Raja Aziz. It was during my third research/training trip to Malaysia that I met Raja Aziz, the Pendakar of the White Eagle Silat style. I had studied several silat systems and met many masters over the years, but as a budding anthropologist was increasingly more interested in the spiritual aspects of these arts. Few non-Muslims are allowed to witness such things, especially in Malaysia, but I was determined, even though thus far I was only given demonstrations of the physical art and lectured on its history, philosophy and spiritual aspects. It happened by accident that while I was talking with Azlan Ghanie, the publisher of "Seni Beladiri" magazine in Kuala Lumpur, that Raja Aziz came by to pay him a visit. After some introductions, I conducted an extended interview with him. This was followed by picture and video taking of his techniques with empty hand and kris. I then asked for a demonstration of White Eagle Silat’s inner power and spiritual aspects, and Raja Aziz agreed. With little fan-fare, he murmured some phrases in Malay, gathered his spirit and his body started shaking. He then crouched into a stance and extended his arms and when he looked up at me he let out a loud yell, like that of an eagle.

As sure as I am alive, it appeared to me (and Ron Beaubian, my fellow researcher from Japan) as if he actually turned into an eagle before my eyes! His body seemed to grow wings and his face a beak and feathers and he looked as if he was about to soar above the clouds. He continued this for some time and then relaxed back into "human" form. I was shocked and dumbfounded. Everybody present laughed, including myself (though nervously). I asked him how he was able to capture the spirit of the eagle and transform himself into it before my very eyes. Raja Aziz said it was the result of a lifetime study and religious practice and belief. His art was that of the white eagle, and only the true pendekar can become one with the bird. I was finally convinced such levels existed outside of fantasy and the stories of zealous students. In short, I continue to travel the world in search of great masters, and while many are great technicians and some great fighters, not many can manifest the true levels of what I consider "mastery." Such experiences as the three mentioned here (among others) leave me with the knowledge that only through proper and dedicated training in connection with a clear conscience and centered mind, can such high levels of martial art be attained. Perhaps one day I will be fortunate to reach such levels.
But for now, more training!

Alan: Well, I think after such inspiring stories, more questions would be out of place. So I will just ask you what your future plans are. I know you are coming back to England again in October.

Mark: Yes, I will be back in Manchester and York in October, then on to Germany, Japan and back home for a seminar in Philadelphia. After many years spent writing about and researching the arts, I am concentrating now on teaching more in an effort to share my experiences and the knowledge of the masters I have trained with. I have also recently put into place an apprenticeship program for those interested in training seriously with me, and invite inquires via email (talahib3@aol.com).

Alan: Thank you Mark for a great insight into your path.

Mark: Thank you for your time and conversation, Alan. It’s been a pleasure and I look forward to seeing you again soon.

Alan Orr is a disciple of Robert Chu Sifu and the European representative of the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

He is also the UK representative for Guro Mark Wiley in the Filipino martial arts and Sensei Eddy Millis of Shark Tank in NHB/Grappling.

Web: www.alanorr.com

For further information Tel: 07958 908 196 or email: info@alanorr.co.uk