Robert Chu Sifu Interview

It is a great honor for me to introduce my sifu, Robert Chu, in his first UK interview. They say even a single ray of light can cast away many shadows. For me, Robert Chu has been such a ray of light and I hope you find this interview equally illuminating.

Alan Orr: Allow me first to introduce Robert Chu. He has been involved in the martial arts since 1972, specializing in Wing Chun Kuen. Over the years, he has been fortunate to learn several versions of the art such as the Yip Man style from several prominent instructors, including his current teacher, Hawkins Cheung, and the Yuen Kay Shan and Gu Lao styles from his good friend and, teacher Kwan Jong-Yuen. Robert Chu is co-author, along with Rene Ritchie and Y.Wu of 'Complete Wing Chun: The definitive guide to Wing Chun's history and traditions' and author of numerous articles and columns on martial arts and Traditional Chinese medicine. He lives in Los Angeles, California where he practices Chinese Medicine and can be found on the web via www.chusaulei.com.

Robert Chu: Thank you, Alan.

AO: Sifu, could you begin by giving us some background on your book, 'Complete Wing Chun' ? What inspired you to put it together..

RC: The book 'Complete Wing Chun', my co-author, Rene Ritchie and I - we didn't really want to call it that. The publishers at Tuttle had a series of martial arts books called "Complete Aikido", "Complete Tai Chi", etc, wanted to call the book that. It was not meant to be complete- it was meant to embrace the historical traditions of Wing Chun, which was the original title of the book. The idea was to let people know that in the 150+ years of history of Wing Chun - it had many different variations and not just the variation that was developed and popularized by Yip Man and now spread over the world. There are many different branches and sub branches of Wing Chun and that despite all the differences, we're all one family of martial arts.

AO: One of the first things that drew me to you was the way you stressed structure in your writings, something which seems now to have spread quite a bit. When people talk about structure, though, are they all talking about the same thing?

RC: It has become a bit of a buzzword, hasn't it? And words do all tend to sound the same, so people may not be quite sure what I mean by structure. When I first wrote an article about body structure, I wasn't talking about the way a form looked per se, but rather, its' function. I have two sayings, "let application be your guide" and "let function rule over form" because most of the time when people are doing form, they're doing it dead and have no idea of the actual function.

For example, a lot of Wing Chun practitioners just stand in a stance when they're learning the first form. They just stand in a locked stance and not moving with their hand motions. I think that people should not only develop their strong stances by sitting there, but they need to know how to move it with each motion to make it practical. This is what is meant by proper structure. Most people have some sort of transitory structure, but don't place an emphasis on it. I put a much stronger emphasis on it. As I say, Wing Chun has five major areas of attributes that everyone should have. Everyone should have development in these areas.

The first are hand techniques - these are the tools.

The second is to have expression of the tools through the body structure. Body structure powers those tools and that is an important requirement. It is the means of using your Dan Tian to mentally align your body properly behind your striking or defending hand.

Third and fourth, one must have timing and positioning. With proper timing, the tools come to life. Positioning is vital for neutralizing and aligning vector forces, get tactical advantage, and can cut down on timing. From there, you must also have sensitivity, which is telling what you feel and how to move accordingly. Sensitivity refers to listening to an opponent's energy. You are able to feel and sense a person giving you a particular energy and can work within the opponent's reactions. Your opponent, is in essence, telling you how he likes to be hit. His position or reaction allows you to choose the most favorable tool for the moment. In that occasion, I can use the proper timing to deliver it, and I have a proper body structure to power it.

A final component is called experience. With experience you know what your options are and you know when to cut down your options. You know how to limit your options and you're not all over the place. You focus on the job in hand and you know this is the best option for the moment.

AO: Could you explain some of the methodology behind this? What approach do you take in teaching and training it?

RC: Yes. You know Wing Chun is Wing Chun pretty much - the differences are really about how people approach their teaching. Basically, a lot of people don't really understand the methodology of the system. What I try to do is teach my students a clear understanding of the methodology of the system and from there, let them use that to guide their own training, and through training they develop their own attributes. The methodology of a system is called "Faat Mun" in Chinese - this is the art of the system, how the founders wanted to make their art functional. Every system has it's own methodology. For example, Choy Lay Fut uses predominantly long bridges. Wing Chun focuses on short bridges. The second is called "Gung Lik" - that is, the attributes, the correct power that you develop over your training. The best way to develop these is through "San Sao" - what are considered isolation drills. For example, a lot of Wing Chun - you stay there and you're learning the first form and a lot of what you're doing is just standing there and you don't move. I think that people should not only develop their strong stances by sitting there, but they need to know how to move it and make it practical. For example, many people do Pak Sao (slapping Hand) exercise and they only stand there and do the drill. Most people train Pak Sao very fixed and stationary, whereas I emphasize a lot of walking and moving initially. I have my students do a lot of isolation exercises as well.

AO: Isolation exercises?

RC: Yes, I take drills from the wooden dummy and I take drills from the forms and then I practice them singularly. In this way, people can develop better attributes, speed, power, sensitivity, so on and so forth.

AO: Okay. And this moves into Chi Sao (sticking hands) as well?

RC: Sure.

AO: I've noticed many people seem only to train Chi Sao in a mechanical, technical way, with not much exploration or experimentation. How do you prevent this from happening in your approach?

RC: Over the years, I've come up with conceptual methods to help get students passed the drill.

AO: Could you explain that a little more?

RC: Sure. Wing Chun already has a progression. Chi Sao, Luk Sao etc… these are mechanical methods, they don't really explain the strategies behind the methods. For example, what I like to do is say OK - you have a dozen or so basic tools for Chi Sao - let's say Pak Da, Lap Da, Tan Da, etc. You're relatively good at these, but then you're not quite sure how to vary them or change them. You need to have different methods. What I did was I took all these methods and broke them down. I have fourteen ways of breaking them down, but even then, a person can discover more. It's just a start, until a student can cross over from ignorance to wisdom.

The first of them is called Mun Fa or asking, or also known as the inquiring method or Yin Fa, which is to entice or lead them in. What I do is I give pressure to a point and then that gives rise to my method or tool, based on my opponent's reaction. This way I check and ask what the opponent is going to do. Once I do that, he has a response and I'm better able to adequately use that against him. For example, I might press an opponent. If he reacts a certain way, with feeling and sensitivity, I can use the Tan Da concept. Let's say in another case where I'm being pressed heavily, I might need to run away from that pressure, this is called Jou Fa - the running method. This is where I run away from your pressure and then it gives me a rise to a new tool - so that's another way.

For example, I can run away from your pressure then I come with Tan Da - my point is it's not just a technique way of doing things, it's a method of using the mental method to guide and create the changes of your moves from there.
Another method is called Jeet Fa or interception. Sometimes people attack very quickly and in the space of one beat you can be hit. What I need to do is to break the opponent's speed and beat him to that punch. I need to intercept him. Let's say he's about to punch and hit me - I intercept him on the 3/4 beat or half beat. So this is a method of interception. Sometimes I see opportunities and I'm feeling them so I see the opponent hasn't time to move so I might steal in or leak in and hit him. I see and opportunity and I steal it, Leaking is different - it is when I passively come across and just take advantage of that situation at that moment.

Another method I practice is where I like to see how would I defend against a certain attack and just try the movement on my opponent. So it might be where I link from one movement to another - so that's another method. This method is called Jiu Fa, which is the method of crossing or moving.

Methods of evasion, or Sim Fa is the study of displacing my body - to dodge or move my body. There are two variations of this, one where I use the small evasion, and simply shift or bend my torso to evade or use the large evasion method, where I use my step to evade.

There might also be a method where I have to guide an opponent into walls or objects or different directions - this is called the Dai Fa - method of guiding. You're trying to hit me, but I guide you, of course - I redirect you or put you in another situation where it's not a favorable outcome for you . You meant to hit me, but obviously I took control of the situation.

Another method is when an opponent gives me a lot of power or force, so I borrow his power. This is another mental method - the method of borrowing. My opponent's power comes to me, I borrow it, I simply absorb it into my structure and then I can use his power against him because my body's like a big spring - you push me into the ground and then I come back and release it back into you.

There are also methods of uprooting. By uprooting, I don't just mean body and stance - I'm trying to mentally uproot you.

The reverse of that is called sinking - I have a method of collapsing you, making your structure collapse or making you stop looking for opportunities to try to hit me or take advantage.

There's also ways of swallowing force or absorption of force and then ways of extending my force and expelling my force. To use the analogy again, my body is like a spring, you push into me and I absorb it; when you let go, I spring out and hit you - this is a natural method.

There's also a method of linking and delinking the body, which I call Tuen Fa. I extend my hand and I delink my hand from my body - I don't mean just take it off, what I'm saying is dropping and bending and folding the joints. I can break or I can connect my tools with my body structure at any time.

The main idea behind my emphasizing mental methods is that Wing Chun practitioners should have some sort of key words as a guiding light to help practitioners. This way the practitioners can say, "All right, I need to have sensitivity - I need to have a vocabulary to explain my methods, otherwise it's just always going to be random - you just never have the method. These fourteen methods are not written in stone, but these are fourteen good guidelines that I use to help students get the idea. It's often said in Chan (Zen) Buddhism.- if the student is deluded, he needs his sifu to guide him; but when the student is enlightened, he can guide himself. My training method is simply a vessel to take the ignorant to wisdom.

AO: Since I've been using them in my own training, I've noticed they dissolve into each other, so they're not separate but they work together in conjunction with the whole system.

RC: That's how it should be!

AO: I've heard you mention (Yi) intention. You said this improves the intention of your training?

RC: That's right, it certainly does! You have to have intention and direction to be successful! Some people talk about a universal formula for success based on four factors: 1) you have to have a goal in mind and 2) then you have to make this goal time bound and then 3) you have to have a plan to reach this goal. Sometimes in reaching this goal you have 4) where you have to adjust your plans accordingly. Sometimes things don't happen according to the right time frame or factors or anything else and then you make adjustments. As long as you have a goal in your Wing Chun, then you can make it very successful. If your goal is to be a great Wing Chun fighter, then you should learn it for fighting. If your goal is to be a great Wing Chun forms man, then they should study what would make their form better and more appealing. Of course, Wing Chun was made for combat, and even my opinion is that pretty forms don't make Wing Chun more effective.

AO: Since we're talking about forms, as a Chinese medical practitioner, you've explained a lot about Siu Nim Tao training and some of the pros and cons. You've said that if it's done in an overly static manner, this will cause stagnation?

RC: The theory of Chinese medicine says that the Chi must flow normally - so if the Chi doesn't flow, it's impeded. The liver governs the chi flow through the body. We often see cases of liver Chi stagnation - when the body is very rigid and a practitioner is wrongly just using the shoulders to issue force. There becomes a lot of stagnation in the shoulder area, and the Gall Bladder 21 point has a tendency to be rigid, along with the other gall bladder points in the area. People also practice incorrectly when they tend to be very rigid in their stances - their knees are locked, and their feet are internally rotated 45 degrees, and the person is sitting in a stiff, locked stance. That method of training causes stagnation of Chi and blood. The theory of Chinese medicine, is that that method is not very healthy - the Chi must always move - if the Chi doesn't move, it gets stagnated. If it gets stagnated, then it can cause the Liver Yang Chi to rise. You see a lot of incidents in Wing Chun where people have the syndrome of Liver Yang Chi rising. You see signs and symptoms such as red eyes, bad temper, red face, a person feels very uncomfortable or irritable, they have a tendency to shout, and have an aggressive attitude and so on. I see a lot of Wing Chun people being very aggressive and egotistical. I don't think it's just the normal fighting spirit of a martial artist, what I see happening is that their normal practice is causing them to be hyperactive in the Liver Yang or the Liver Chi causing them to be mentally or emotionally unbalanced.

AO: As a Chinese medicine practitioner myself, it brings a picture to mind of the Liver and Gall Bladder channel which are wood channels, so the difference between vibrant Wing Chun as a tree or Wing Chun that's not so vibrant, being as wood. You can see it as mental projection of the system itself.

RC: I think you know Wing Chun people are very proud for a good reason - we are the mother system of Bruce Lee and a very famous system throughout modern China. However I see a tendency to over aggressiveness in a lot of practitioners and I think that they're not balanced in their training well enough. When we talk about body structure, a fundamental concept and practice, we speak of the alignment of vector forces. We never talk about a punch as an entity by itself with the shoulder alone because that's separate from the organism. The entire organism when it's punching should have every aspect from head to toe be connected in that punch. The intention is that the body alignment is there, the hip placement is there, the foot gripping the ground is there for that split second. Many people will teach you that you have to grip with the toes for example when you're just standing in your basic stance. If you do that, then your Wing Chun stance is locked. In the proper way to do things, you really have to relax the toes - there's a certain point of gripping the toes - there's never just gripping the toes all of the time. You also have to have imagination or use your intent - you have to imagine that there's a vector force from kidney 1 to heel as the route and then linking up through the leg into the knee, into the hip, from the hip to the waist, from the waist to the rib cage and back to the shoulder, the shoulder connected to the elbow, the elbow connected to the ribs and then extending outwards. All these are linked and functioning as one unit. These are things we're stressing within our system. When you are receiving a force, we do the reverse and use the force to root us into the ground. The stress of our opponent's pressure causes hypertrophy of the bone because you're extending the bones to fight against gravity. The muscles have to hold the bones in place causing hypertrophy of the bones, making the bones thicker, stronger. This is basic training, and the idea of "trained strength" or "Gung Lik" in our system. We also practice with the idea that you twist your motions. When you twist the motions, you elongate the tendons, you cause again a stress on the bones, causing a minor force to act upon the bones, causing bone, muscle and tendon development. This correspond to the ancient saying of "Internally train one breath of air; externally train the skin the muscles and the bones." This means we externally train these from the martial arts movement. We train the skin because its attached to the muscle - attached to the bone and the sinew.

AO: Going back to the stance - the Wing Chun stance is obviously based around developing energy for fighting so there are pros and cons of the Wing Chun stance training.

RC: The stance is not a fixed stance or fixed pose. I think the early translators of martial arts had nothing to equate it to - perhaps they tried to equate martial arts motions with western fencing or boxing thinking they were a series of different poses. No one just takes a stance and fights from a stance. A stance is always dynamic and changing. In Chinese we call it "Ma Bo", "Ma" is "horse" and "Bo" is "a step". Chinese martial artists talk about "Bo Fa" - methods of stepping, not standing. We do not talk of a stance as a fixed entity - only in Chinese martial arts today, has it become a fixed entity. Stance is not fixed - it is never fixed. There's an active phase to the stance or shall we say to the body structure. Because I tend to use an English translation, it is actually co-coordinated with the torso methods - what's called in Chinese "Shen Fa". Shen Fa and Bo Fa work together. Bo Fa is the stepping methods and so the active phase is when you are applying power. There is also the neutral phase, a phase in-between. Finally, there is a passive phase, where you are absorbing your opponent's force. Proper Wing Chun uses all of these properly. Everything begins and originates from the footwork. Footwork transfers into the body and into the torso methods and produces more energy for our tools. We don't lift up our feet too much - what we do is basically glide over to position and then relax sink and root. It's never a point of just stopping and applying force from there. From here, it's a matter of preference of body weight distributions that differentiates and delineates the different methods of Wing Chun. Some schools believe one hundred percent that all the weight is in the back leg, zero percent is in the front leg. Other schools may say that 99 percent of the body weight on the back leg and 1 percent on the front leg. Maybe those schools had to worry about leg sweeps and the like in the early days so they have a paranoia of protecting the lead leg with that. To me, the functional aspect is always embodied in a 50-50 weight distribution. If you're being active and you wanted to displace someone - the weight has to go from the back leg into the front and then you can displace them and then you can go back to your neutral position. If you choose to go 99/1percent distribution on the back leg, and that is your school's preference, that's fine. But understand the function of your stance. I have a tendency of doing 50/50 because I think that's the most neutral on balance. Then if I need to go the other way from there I can easily shift all my weight to another angle. There's a time and place for every weight distribution. Wing chun does not depend on a fixed format - so you can't say OK I only do my form 50/50 and that's the only way that will do - it depends on your relationship with your opponent -so that will cause the weight to be a certain way. You have to neutralize your opponent's force at all times in Wing Chun. When you do the first form you're using your own timing and energy, however if you want to train all the time you always put more weight on one leg. There's also a saying that one "stands like a crane" in Wing Chun. A crane always stands on one leg. If you stand on one leg - one leg is always doing the work so you always have a chance to train and develop. In our method, some people might incorrectly say, "Well you're standing 50/50 - oh, you're double rooted!" - these people don't understand what double rooted means. Double rooted doesn't mean you have weight on both legs 50/50 - it's talking about a relationship between me and my opponent, which means that I can control the linkage and the relationship of having my opponent's weight on me. If I were double rooted, it would mean that I have my opponent's weight on me and then I put my own weight on a leg, causing me to be immobile and not in control of the situation. That's double rooted! Then you're stagnated. If you receive your opponent's weight and you can control his weight and you can maneuver accordingly - you are not double rooted. I hope I'm clear. Maybe only some Tai Chi and Wing Chun people can understand what I'm saying here.

AO: From a Chinese medicine point of view Wing Chun stance has pros and cons. It helps more fire but it builds up too much fire if not understood correctly.

RC: Ah yes, the stagnation of Chi . Where the stance is locked and stiff. The pelvis is locked forward, the feet are turned inwards at a 45 degree angle and you sink your weight - you might be leaning back all of the shoulders are locked. In my opinion your locking up the Liver and Gall bladder channels - that's the wood element in the Chinese five elements theory. The Wood element gives birth to the fire element very easily, When you're stagnated in the Liver and Gall Bladder channels, you can cause a lot of fire in your body - which can unbalance your heart and spirit. I really think that's why a lot of Wing Chun people are aggressive; this is a byproduct of improper training.

AO: Can you say something about that because that s something that is particular to your expression at the moment.

RC: When I teach my system, I like my students to be very clear about what they are practicing. I don't like to be a teacher that expounds a lot of theory and techniques. Theory is something that is kind of half-baked. You have an idea that you can do something like this, but you' re not quite sure of what the outcome will be. So you have a theory - that is, you' re hypothesizing about the possible outcome. If you' re talking about principles, I believe that's better. The teacher they should have actual experience - he should know by experience, that okay, I thought this would work, but I know now that it doesn't work… A good teacher should pass on principles to his students, not theories. The same thing goes for concepts. Teachers need to teach concepts rather than techniques. Techniques are merely examples of concepts, frozen in time. I think too many Wing Chun people get stuck in the technique phase and just remain mediocre technicians. Concepts are ideas, just as we're discussing here. Rather than having a student go through 200- 300 techniques, if a student is given the concept from the start, then he can adapt to the circumstances and create his own techniques when needed. An analogy, I like to use is in Chinese herbology, when you see a person with a particular ailment you know that a certain formula of herbs will benefit that ailment, and if you see other signs and symptoms, then you add additional herbs. That's the mark of a proficient herbalist. A good Wing Chun practitioner needs to be like a skillful medicine master to provide the correct medicine to correct an ailment. In other words, a Wing Chun practitioner has to fit in with the moment when attacked.

AO: From my point of view I felt that you' ve made me teach myself by teaching me the concept - I can see the technique myself. The cuts down the idea of chasing a thousand techniques.

RC: Exactly! A lot of Wing Chun people are familiar with Tan Da - a rudimentary concept of the system. There are many variations of Tan Da, but many people only take one way as the technique. How can one say there's only one variation of it? If you give a student the concept, they can spring forth many different variations. That's the idea behind Wing Chun! Wing Chun is supposed to be alive. The name of our art is means "in praise of spring". Spring is the season when things are blooming and new. We have to bring forth practitioners to this level - where the art is alive, where one can change and adapt to circumstances - where a student is able to use it in every circumstance and never worry about it.

AO: This is going back to the idea that forms are not just sets of techniques they' re actually expressions that accumulate to build up.

RC: Forms are concepts in themselves. They are an aide to help you memorize different things, that you might otherwise forget. They help you with concepts of understanding of fundamental principles. For example, the first form teaches how to use the centerline and makes you aware of it, face the opponent with it, occupy it and control it. The second form teaches how to change the centerline, and move the centerline. The third form teaches how to regain the centerline if you've lost it, and how to break into an opponent's centerline from the outside gates. When you learn the Jong (dummy), it is a mixture of these centerline principles. The pole training in Wing Chun is an extension of the centerline and the knives training is a double line extension of the centerline. Of course, forms training is not enough, so we must do different drills extracted from the forms to help a practitioner develop an understanding through training and actual practice, so he can visualize and make real these concepts and principles.

AO: Well Sifu you know me, I could ask questions all day and night and you could answer them, but I think the magazine will have had enough of us for now. Let me thank you personally for sharing your insights on Wing Chun.

RC: Thank you Alan. It is my sincere wish that practitioners in the U.K. can develop and propagate this great art. Just as I ask my disciples to swear and uphold, I hope the practitioners of this tradition can maintain the principles and concepts of our ancestors with dignity and respect. That is, I hope they give credit when credit is due, and don't make up any nonsense to shame those that have come before us. I also hope my fellow practitioners strive to pass on the art with honor and chivalry and not abuse the system for personal gain. I often see cases where various teachers of the art abuse their loyal students through withholding the teachings, making them pay outrageous fees, or other nonsense. Lastly, I hope that people can use the system of Wing Chun as a powerful means to developing self awareness, and to help others on the path. This is to find inner peace and become a productive member of society, not be a martial arts thug. I appreciate this time you spent with me. Thank you.

Alan Orr is a disciple of Robert Chu Sifu and the European representative of the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

He is also the UK representative for Guro Mark Wiley in the Filipino martial arts and Sensei Eddy Millis of Shark Tank in NHB/Grappling.

Web: www.alanorr.com

For further information Tel: 07958 908 196 or email: info@alanorr.co.uk